A reluctant House State Affairs Committee voted 10-5 this morning to forward legislation to outlaw the Idaho Lottery’s “touch tab” vending machines to the full House, but without the customary recommendation that it “do pass.”

Instead, the successful motion, after a two-hour hearing, forwarded HB 28 to the House without recommendation.

Members of the group “Stop Predatory Gambling” argued that the machines allow rapid-fire betting – as quickly as slot machines. But Idaho Lottery Director Jeff Anderson shared statistics on the machines’ use that showed the machines, which individually sell three-line “touch-tab” tickets priced from 25 cents to $2.50, collected an average of $7.03 per hour in bets in 2016. At the 25 sites where the machines are the most popular and heavily used, they collected an average of $15.88 per hour.

The machines, which lawmakers were informed about repeatedly when they were first introduced in a pilot project in 2011 and then installed at 144 bars or taverns around the state, lack the spinning reels, flashing lights, bells and whistles of slot machines, and they don’t accept coins. But Jonathan Krutz of Stop Predatory Gambling told the lawmakers, “The difference between paper pulltabs and these touch-tab machines is the difference between caffeine and cocaine.” He estimated that the machines could allow a player to bet up to $9,000 per hour.

Jeremy Pisca, lobbyist for International Gameco and Oasis Gaming, the vendor of the game machines to the lottery, said, “Frankly, these claims just aren’t true. … People aren’t playing them that way.”

Del Ririe, another board member of the anti-gambling group, told the committee, “While this may not appear insidious at this moment, it does open the door and it is a slippery slope. … We will find it everywhere and it does destroy families and lives.”

Lt. Charles Ketchum of the Idaho State Police’s Alcohol Beverage Control Bureau told the lawmakers, “We have never received a complaint about the lottery machines we’re currently talking about.”

Rep. Vito Barbieri, R-Dalton Gardens, voted against the bill. He asked Rep. Steven Harris, R-Meridian, the bill’s lead sponsor, if it would satisfy his concerns if the bill instead limited how rapidly the machines could be operated. Harris said no. “There’s also electronic form that allows us to cross a threshold to I don’t know what next,” he said. “It sort of leads us into the flavor of the kind of gambling, the kind of harmful gambling that lottery wasn’t trying to do ever.”

Barbieri said after the meeting that if the rapidity of play was the problem, “we should go straight to slowing the machine down, but that would be micromanaging the lottery. The idea that the lottery is legal should be sufficient.”

Rep. Priscilla Giddings, R-White Bird, who also voted against the bill, said, “The law supports it. I reached out to my constituents and business owners in my district, and I did not have one respond to me that they were in favor.”

When the hearing ended and it was time for the committee to vote on the bill, there was a pause, as no member appeared to want to make a motion. Then substitute Rep. Eva Nye, who is filling in for Rep. Elaine Smith, D-Pocatello, moved to hold the bill in committee, but that motion died, 6-9. Rep. Heather Scott, R-Blanchard, then moved to approve the bill and send it to the full House with a recommendation that it pass. Before the panel could vote on that motion, Rep. Dustin Manwaring, R-Pocatello, made a substitute motion to send it to the full House without recommendation. There was no discussion; committee Chairman Tom Loertscher, R-Iona, said, "Nobody wants to talk about it." Scott then said she liked Manwaring's motion better than hers. It passed, 10-5.

The five “no” votes came from Reps. Paulette Jordan, D-Plummer; Nye; Barbieri; and Giddings. Manwaring was the only one who switched sides from the first vote.

Scott said after the meeting that she might or might not support the bill, but wanted it on the floor for consideration and wanted more information.

Anderson said because the lottery can legally only be played by those 18 and older, the lottery chose to locate the touch tab machines in bars and taverns where no one under 21 is permitted. That’s because regular lottery vending machines, like those in grocery stores, have a remote kill switch allowing a distant attendant to shut them off if they’re approached by a minor; the touch tab machines don’t have that feature.

The touch tab machines are in 144 locations around the state; there are about 240 total machines, Anderson said.

He also provided the committee with a copy of an Idaho Attorney General’s opinion provided to the Idaho Lottery before it installed the machines, detailing why the machines are legal in Idaho and are not considered slot machines or electronic simulations of slot machines.

Harris’ fiscal note for the bill said it would have “minimal” fiscal impact, but Anderson strongly disputed that. He said the machines provided $3 million in net profit to the lottery in 2016, five-eighths of which went to public schools and the school bond levy equalization fund; the rest went to the state’s permanent building fund. In addition, businesses that host the machines earned $2 million in commissions. The top prize on the touch-tab machines is $599; total betting on them in 2016 was $33 million, of which between 72 and 79.5 percent went to prizes. Retailers got 5 percent in commissioners. The remainder was split 60-40, with the Idaho Lottery getting 60 percent, and the vendor 40 percent. The vendor covers all costs to maintain and operate the machines.